Dr Michael Durtnall

Treatment options for UK & Irish members; including VHI & HSE criteria for funding and E112 Applications etc.

Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:35 pm

I wouldn't be able to recommend anyone Violet.
I have been to nearly all of the people mentioned in the post above yours,which was very difficult because of the travelling involved and also very expensive. I've spent most of my savings on useless treatments, some of which have made matters worse.I spent a small fortune going to see Ruth Jones, who at the time charged £140 an hour, as I remember. I was always encouraged to have more treatments by all of the therapists I saw.
Most recently, as I posted , I tried Restorative Exercise, which has resulted in a serious worsening of my pain, which has lasted for many months now .There is no sign of the pain getting any better.
The pain management course I attended was somewhat useful and it was interesting and helpful to meet many other men who had the same problem. Like me, they had tried many different alternative treatments with no result. I would advise people to be aware of the possibility of making their pain worse when they go to any kind of alternative therapist.Also be prepared to waste money.
I do urge people to be very cautious and sceptical about any treatments with no evidence at all other than anonymous testimonials posted on websites. They may or may not be authentic.Whatever you may say, which with respect, I think muddies the waters somewhat: there is a big difference between anonymous testimonials and peer reviewed research. There is some evidence for physiotherapy for PN but none that I have found-nor that you know of- for the services of a Chiropractor.

I did notice this statement in the post before yours, stating that the writer had been cured:" the posterior femoral cutaneous nerve causing the pain."
Isabellucy seems to be saying that although she was diagnosed as having PN by Dr Baranowski, she didn't have PN. She seems to be saying, unless I've misunderstood, that Dr Baranowski offered her only a medication patch as a treatment. Having been treated by him myself, I find that surprising. Firstly, if as she seems to be saying, she had no pain relief from the injections, I'm not sure how he would have made such a diagnosis and secondly, I understood that he normally gives injections bilaterally at two different locations and normally repeats the injections. He also offers other treatment options, including pulsed radiofrequency. Maybe I've totally missed something here. Perhaps Isabellucy could explain ?
The most help I get now is from the medication from my GP.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:11 am

Violet M wrote:Alan, I think you have completely missed the point. This is not just about Dr. Durtnall -- it's about all of the PT's. If you are going to complain about him and the methods he uses then essentially you are complaining about all of the PT's because they use similar methods. Y
Violet

I don't think I have missed the point. Dr Durtnall's qualification is that of a chiropractor. Are you somehow arguing that a chiropractor is a type of physical therapist and therefore any criticism of him is a criticism of all types of physical therapists? Does he now do massage? I am distinguishing between chiropractors and what's known in the UK as physiotherapists, under which heading come practitioners such as Helen Keeble. She isn't a chiropractor and works entirely differently. That is what I meant in my previous post by muddying the waters.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Violet M » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:11 am

Alan, I think we are going around in circles on the chiropractor vs. PT discussion, since as I mentioned before there is some overlap in the treatments. Dr. Durtnall trained to provide some of the same therapies as the PT's and he employs some PT's. I noticed Isabellucy had dry needling from Dr. Durtnall which is something some of the PT's do and she also was seen by a PT in the practice. Isabellucy also said he does massage of the restricted tissue. So I'm not sure why you keep limiting your argument about Dr. Durtnall to chiropractic treatments since he and his team do more than that.

I can understand why you are skeptical of any treatments if you have had bad experiences from them but that doesn't negate the positive experiences other people have had. There is no reason we should believe your negative accounts anymore than we should believe the positive accounts we have heard.

Whatever you try, it's possible to get worse. The reality is that there are no treatment modalities that have a 100% cure rate when it comes to pudendal neuralgia so you have a choice -- try what's available, starting with the least invasive/least risky first, or do nothing. You can also get worse if you do nothing. It is unfortunate that it costs a lot of money. That is the sad reality. I think it's perfectly fair for you to warn people that they might spend a lot of money on treatments that may or may not work. I completely agree with your assessment on that. I don't believe in doing endless PT. I have said before on this forum that based on what Dr. Wise told one of my friends, that if you aren't improving after 6-12 sessions of PT, you probably aren't going to see improvement from PT.

I'm sorry you haven't found something that's worked for you. Using medication is certainly an option, especially if you are on medications that you won't develop a tolerance to.

Violet
PNE since 2002. Started from weightlifting. PNE surgery from Dr. Bautrant, Oct 2004. Pain now is usually a 0 and I can sit for hours on certain chairs. No longer take medication for PNE. Can work full time and do "The Firm" exercise program. 99% cured from PGAD. PNE surgery was right for me but it might not be for you. Do your research.
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:00 am

Violet M wrote:
I can understand why you are skeptical of any treatments if you have had bad experiences from them but that doesn't negate the positive experiences other people have had. There is no reason we should believe your negative accounts anymore than we should believe the positive accounts we have heard.


Violet

I am not trying to "negate positive experiences". You still haven't answered my point about evidence. Is there any evidence for Dr Durtnall's treatments for Pudendal Neuralgia other than anonymous and non-authenticated testimonials?

If you give credence to anonymous testimonials that may or may not be genuine, you are taking a serious risk. I am not trying to impose the results of my personal experiences on others. You asked what I would recommend and so I told you , and explained my answer.

By the way, not all of the testimonials for Dr Durtnall are postive:
"Re: Update on Treatment with Dr Michael Durtnall
Postby Constance » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:04 pm

I went to Sayer Clinic for my coccyx pain. Had internal manipulation and was told that i had tight pelvic floor and was recommended physio to release the tension.

I had NO pelvic pain prior to the treatment. After a course of treatment and spending lots of money, i started to get weird sensation in my clitoriuos and labia. Feeling a foreign object in my rectum. Finally a full flare up with severe burning pain from the rectum to clitorious for hrs few months after the treatment. I am totally drained. i have 2 problems to deal with now. a painful coccyx and a mysterious burning pain.

PT could worsen things. They might helped others but definitely not me. Give it a good thought if you are going for physio."



I have no idea why you repeatedly say nothing has a 100% cure rate for PN. I never suggested anything to do with that. Also, it's illogical to say that because no treatment offers a 100% cure rate patients should therefore resort to non-evidence based treatments.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Violet M » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:09 am

Alan, the only thing I see that you recommended is medication. Some people would like to try other options.

Regarding evidence -- you just posted several posts back that there is some evidence for physiotherapy for PN. If your argument is that Dr. Durtnall doesn't use any PT techniques that is just simply false.

If there wasn't any evidence for PT, insurance wouldn't be covering it. All of my PT was covered by insurance - minus a copay.

I agree with you -- not every post about Dr. Durtnall is positive. Who ever said they were? Could you please point everyone to a provider who treats PN who has a 100% success rate with no negative reviews?

Violet
PNE since 2002. Started from weightlifting. PNE surgery from Dr. Bautrant, Oct 2004. Pain now is usually a 0 and I can sit for hours on certain chairs. No longer take medication for PNE. Can work full time and do "The Firm" exercise program. 99% cured from PGAD. PNE surgery was right for me but it might not be for you. Do your research.
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:57 pm

Violet, Firstly, you say the only thing I recommend is medication. That is simply incorrect. I haven't recommended anything, have I? Please re-read what I wrote and check that for yourself.
Yes, of course I agree with you that there are some studies on Physiotherapy, and whether these are convincing or not is for the individual to decide.I have defined previously what I meant by Physiotherapy. There is for example a lengthy discussion on these boards about Dr Wise's study. I remember Ezer arguing that the positive results were in placebo territory but I suggest that people look at the actual studies and make up their own minds. I am not asking about Physiotherapy.
What I am saying is something different: Dr Durtnall's qualifications are in the following , which he posts on his company's website:
"UK (AECC) Doctor of Chiropractic, USA National Board of Examiners Diplomate. Canadian National Board Examiners Diplomate. Diploma in Roentgenology. Master of Science MSc."
I can see no qualification in Physiotherapy and as far as I know he does use chiropractic adjustments on his patients.I think that all of those who have posted here about him say that they have have such adjustments carried out. It is evidence about the value of those chiropractic adjustments for PN patients that I am asking about.
You seem to be arguing that because he uses, in addition, some aspects of massage and dry needling, evidence available on Physiotherapy is relevant to his work. I would ask then exactly what evidence is there that the limited aspects of massage and dry needling that he does use are effective for PN? I do think you are muddying the waters by conflating the use of limited aspects of massage with studies on Physiotherapy.
You further seem to be arguing that because there are physiotherapists working with him, that somehow covers his Chiropractic work as being researched for PN. I just don't see the obvious connection.
Again and again you state the obvious , that nothing is 100% effective. I never said it was. Again, please re-read what I wrote.
I will try to make my question even clearer: is there any evidence that chiropractic adjustments are beneficial for PN?
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Violet M » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:22 am

Alan1646 wrote:I will try to make my question even clearer: is there any evidence that chiropractic adjustments are beneficial for PN?


Not sure why you are asking that question because I never claimed chiro adjustments are beneficial for PN. The only reason we added him to our list is because he trained from some pudendal neuralgia PT's.
If Dr. Durtnall was satisfied with chiro adjustments for PN why would he have gone for training from PT's?

Alan1646 wrote:Violet, Firstly, you say the only thing I recommend is medication. That is simply incorrect. I haven't recommended anything, have I? Please re-read what I wrote and check that for yourself.


I reread what you wrote. The only positive comment that you made was about medication. Sorry, I misunderstood. I guess you wouldn't recommend anything then? I'm sorry nothing has worked for you, Alan.

Violet
PNE since 2002. Started from weightlifting. PNE surgery from Dr. Bautrant, Oct 2004. Pain now is usually a 0 and I can sit for hours on certain chairs. No longer take medication for PNE. Can work full time and do "The Firm" exercise program. 99% cured from PGAD. PNE surgery was right for me but it might not be for you. Do your research.
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby cjmca » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:33 pm

I'm just back from London having flown over from Dublin to see Michael Durtnall.

From my perspective, I wanted to be seen by somebody who could look at my case from a neuromusculoskeletal viewpoint e.g. Was my hip out of whack and squishing a nerve? Was my back out of whack? Was there anything obvious that was causing pudendal irritation? I wanted one person to look at me from top to toe, rather than one doc looking at one scan, another doing a PT evaluation, and nobody talking to one another. As far as I understand it, PN can come from your back, tight glutes, wonky hips, hypertonic pelvic floor etc. We all know that unfortunately there are many causes.

I had a standing X-ray which showed my hips and pelvis were nicely aligned. My spine isn't quite as good but I expected that. The X-ray showed a disc in my neck that was showing early signs of problems. I told Michael I crack my neck frequently out of habit - bad idea, the dodgy disc is the one I'm (no longer!) cracking. He did some manipulations, and massage on tight muscle. The pelvic floor evaluation was what I expected and yes, its hypertonic. He also picked up on the muscle tissue feeling un-estrogenised.

I can only describe Michael Durtnall as very professional, friendly and knowledgeable. The internal pelvic floor evaluation and massage he did was the same as Maeve Whelan in Dublin. I saw one of the physios at the clinic for an hour for further treatment and she worked on my back, glutes and pelvic floor. She said she felt my pudendal nerve was irritated, and that's the diagnosis from my pain doctor in Dublin.

Is Michael Durtnall primarily a PT? No. He's primarily a chiropractor. But he's not just a chiro. It was really important to me that my bones were looked at as a potential issue, which he ruled out. My pelvic floor and musculature were red flagged by by him, from an estrogen perspective and a hypertonic pelvic floor perspective. Again, same as Maeve Whelan in Dublin.

This is my own personal experience. Like anyone reading a public forum, you take posts with a grain of salt. I for one am glad I went.
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Isabellucy » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi Alan,
I just wrote a really long reply to you but I don't think it posted? I can't find it? I'm not very good at navigating this forum I'm afraid!
If you can't find it either I'd be happy to write again or PM you,
Best wishes
Beth
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:41 pm

"If Dr. Durtnall was satisfied with chiro adjustments for PN why would he have gone for training from PT's? " That's a very good question Violet. Perhaps you can see why I've been asking about evidence.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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