Dr Michael Durtnall

Treatment options for UK & Irish members; including VHI & HSE criteria for funding and E112 Applications etc.

Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:36 pm

Marwa B wrote:1) Where's the evidence?
You're asking for a type of evidence that simply hasn't been compiled yet,.

I take it then that there is no evidence, apart from unverified and anonymous posts on this forum and perhaps other forums.
I'm not going to engage in personal remarks, but I would make the point that without proper evidence we don't know whether a treatment is successful or not. Look for example at this: https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... -andy-carr
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Andy_Pablo » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:37 pm

So there is a 'placebo effect' with some, but not with others. That clears up a grand total of zero.
Credula vitam spes fovet et melius cras fore semper dicit...
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:00 am

Andy_Pablo wrote:So there is a 'placebo effect' with some, but not with others.

Andy, the point is that with a number of treatments, we just don't know. From the article I linked to :
"Carr said a wide range of other procedures ought to be investigated. “The correct thing has got to be to do the trials – not to continue doing operations where we don’t know whether or not there’s a strong placebo component or an entire placebo component because that means that tens or hundreds of thousands of patients are having unnecessary operations,” he said."
The article is about surgery, but the same points apply to other treatments. Jason made some excellent points about the need for studies.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:23 pm

Marwa B wrote:Hi Alan,

, I'm labelling you obsessive ... paranoia... pedantically dissected by you, ...badgered for evidence... accusatory and ill-disposed. You have no real interest in the answers to these questions, Alan. .


Forum Rule No 2 :
2. Discuss and debate important issues without personal attacks.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Marwa B » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:36 am

Hi Alan,

I will remove the word obsessive, if it offends you, as that is a direct negative statement about you personally. However the other sentences you've quoted are descriptive of your approach to the discussion and not attacks, just like you have made fun of people's styles of writing with words like ''messianic''.

I feel its far more of personal attack to harass people with circular arguments, and belittle their personal stories, in a place intended to provide a supportive environment.

You've ignored all (your own) questions that I've answered for you and chosen a single sentence to discuss further, bringing us back to an unreasonably circular and unproductive place - your point is that you haven't found enough evidence to convince you of this treatment. And that's absolutely fine Alan! Why you're compelled to continue to dissect something you're so unconvinced by is beyond me! As I keep saying, why not concern yourself with something that does convince you?
I'd rather not continue to go around in circles with you about this.
Is there anything productive or helpful we can discuss?

Marwa
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Marwa B » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:57 am

Alan1646 wrote:
Marwa B wrote:Hi Alan,

, I'm labelling you obsessive ... paranoia... pedantically dissected by you, ...badgered for evidence... accusatory and ill-disposed. You have no real interest in the answers to these questions, Alan. .


Forum Rule No 2 :
2. Discuss and debate important issues without personal attacks.


Alan, I've removed that word for you. Just to clarify on the rest, I have made no personal attacks:

I didn't say you were ''paranoid'', I said ''this is frankly, paranoia'' In reference to the implications of deceit.
I didn't say you were ''accusatory and ill-disposed'', I said your tone was, just as you have commented (extensively!) on people's tones prior.

In terms of the sentences; pedantically dissected by you, ...badgered for evidence. Well they're obviously not personal attacks, by any stretch of the imagination. Similar to you mockingly describing someone's recovery as ''miraculous'' on another post. They're descriptive of an approach.

''You have no real interest in the answers to these questions, Alan'' - Again if saying someone has no interest in something is an attack, then god help us all! (That was a humorous statement Alan, intended only to lighten the mood, so please don't accuse me of associating religion with any treatment)

I hope this clears it up for you, as my intention isn't to attack you at all. Rather to show you how you're coming across, so that you might re-think you're approach, if you are genuinely interested in furthering your understanding on this method, this isn't the best way to discuss it with people, as it gives the impression that you're not interested at all, and only want to disprove their experiences (which isn't very nice, or helpful to anyone).

Marwa
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:47 am

[quote="Marwa B"] I have made no personal attacks:
Last edited by Alan1646 on Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Alan1646 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:03 pm

Alan1646 wrote:
Marwa B wrote: I have made no personal attacks:

I didn't say you were ''paranoid'', I said ''this is frankly, paranoia'' In reference to the implications of deceit.
I didn't say you were ''accusatory and ill-disposed'', I said your tone was, just as you have commented (extensively!) on people's tones prior.


Firstly, this is just splitting hairs, and secondly, you are not a moderator so it's not for you to judge.

Marwa B wrote:ou have no real interest in the answers to these questions, Alan


That is patently untrue. I have put forward for discussion two very important issues, to which there has been no response from you. Firstly, I recently raised the topic of the placebo response , particularly with regard to operations but also with reference to other treatments and argued that without good quality evidence we can't know whether any treatment is effective or not.
Secondly, I have raised the issue of incorrect "alignment" as the purported cause of illness. I have given specific links for this and I have also raised the question of the safety and risks of chiropractic adjustments.Please read this : https://www.painscience.com/articles/structuralism.php and this: https://health.spectator.co.uk/the-evid ... than-good/
On the allegation that what I have written is "paranoid" - and the other adjectives you've used, I would ask why you are picking on just me when many other posters have raised the same topic, more than once.
"if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself" Orwell
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Andy_Pablo » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:53 am

Please play nice people. This is meant to be a place of support for each other.
Credula vitam spes fovet et melius cras fore semper dicit...
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Re: Dr Michael Durtnall

Postby Marwa B » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:31 am

Hi Alan,

I am not picking on you! I simply posted my personal experience on here, to which your response was to belittle it, dissect my language, and demand I produce objective evidence for it! How is that a reasonable way to behave? How is that a reasonable response to somebody sharing their story? Despite this, I have tried tirelessly to steer this conversation into a productive space, but every time I address one of your concerns, you seem compelled to find and pose another. All fueled with an accusatory and mocking tone. Surely you can see how that is becoming tiresome, circular?
I really feel that If your concerns were genuine, you wouldn't be inclined to consistently ignore my answers to them, and simply jump to the next angle of attack. You just seem hell bent on disproving the validity of my very own experience to me, and yet you think I'm the one picking on you! Nobody else has behaved in this relentlessly combative way on here, so I've only had to respond/react to you in this fashion, the operative word being; react! I'm not the instigator of any dispute here, I simply shared what happened to me, and am unfortunately, having to defend my experience.

Your linking of articles that pertain to oppose my position on the matter, is arbitrary, because it isn't going to change my experience! The fact is that I, and many others, have had positive results with this treatment. This isn't a matter of speculation for me, based on articles or opinion, I actually lived it! Whether you can accept that or not, shouldn't be made my problem in this way. I'm not obligated to compile a peer reviewed study for you, or evaluate and respond to these articles. I'm sure if I did, you would just ignore my response, and circle back to yet another strain of attack, as has been the pattern of your behavior so far. I shouldn't have to pander to such demands, or face my experience being mocked, belittled and dismissed.

I offered to discuss my treatment with you, as that is the extent of my authority on the matter, and I did my best to answer all of your questions. Now the decent thing to do is have some sensitivity and respect for others posts, especially when they are personal accounts.

Marwa
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